Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MGSACS

POD question

Recommended Posts

Hello.  I have a question regarding a Pay on Death account.  I was here the end of last year asking similar questions.  A quick recap:

 

My elderly father who has past and had  Alzheimer's  was befriended by a guy at McDonald's.  This guy convinced my father to turn over his POA and change his will, where he made himself executor and all accounts would go to the executor.  I was able to get him removed as POA and removed as executor.  This happened when I was able to convince the court that there was a need for a professional guardian.

 

When my father passed, he and my father's deceased wife's children called the guardian together saying that her will stated there was an account with $100k in it and that it had a POD to the wife's kids.  This is somewhat correct however her will reads something like this:

 

If she passes first the "joint" account goes to my father.  If my father passes first and then she passes then money in that account  goes to her children.

 

The former POA only told the guardian that there was a POD and the money would go to my father's  wife's kids on his death,  The guardian found her will when my father passed and brought this up in her final report to the court that it was a joint account and the monies should have been transferred to my father.

 

That was 6 months ago.  My attorney believes we win.  We are in probate and my attorney wants to do something called a TEDRA.   However, i would like to ask a couple questions?

 

1.  The former POA never transferred the money.  Shouldn't that money have automatically been transferred to my father?

2.  As a joint account, on her death, doesn't that money automatically become his?

3.  Can her kids legally claim that it is their money, since there was a POD and my father has now passed, even though the former POA did follower her  will with a transfer to my father?

4.  Can she even have a will claiming what to do with a joint account?

5..Is the former POA liable?

 

To put things a little bit more in perspective, the former POA, told my father that he needed money and they should have a garage sale.  He emptied out 1/2 of my father's home and took the items to his home.  This was January or February in Washington State.  I was able to get courts to compel him to return the items, which he returned some of.  I was only able to prove he kept a some items.

 

On my father's death he quit claimed the house over to my father's dead wife's kids, within a couple of weeks.  

 

As always convoluted, but thank you for any insights.

 

Elliot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

saying that her will stated there was an account with $100k in it and that it had a POD to the wife's kids

In some sense, it doesn't really matter what her will said on the subject.

The real question is whether there actually was a joint account, or an account that had a POD designation.

The bank or other institution where the account existed would have that information.

 

If it really was a joint account between wife and your father, or if it really was an account in wife's name that designated father with a POD, then regardless of what her will may have said on the subject, the monies would have belonged to your father at the time of her death without any further action.

 

Part of the point of having a joint account or having a POD designation on an account is that the contents of the account are not subject to a will or probate proceedings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

This guy convinced my father to turn over his POA and change his will, where he made himself executor and all accounts would go to the executor.

 

No he didn't.  Your father nominated him to be executor.  In order to become executor, the guy would have had to be appointed by the probate court, and it's not clear whether that actually happened.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

This happened when I was able to convince the court that there was a need for a professional guardian.

 

A guardian only would have been needed if your father was alive.  While he was alive, there was no executor because there was no estate yet.  I can't tell if the prior sentence meant that the court appointed Mr. McDonald's as executor and then removed him or whether he was never actually executor and that something happened before your father died with respect to the nomination of Mr. McDonald's as executor.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

her will reads something like this:

 

If she passes first the "joint" account goes to my father.  If my father passes first and then she passes then money in that account  goes to her children.

 

So if, as appears to be the case, his wife (who apparently was not your mother) died first, then your father became the sole owner of he account pursuant to the terms of the account agreement, not her will (assuming a standard joint account agreement, the surviving joint owner becomes the sole owner of the account upon the death of one of them.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

The former POA only told the guardian that there was a POD and the money would go to my father's  wife's kids on his death,  The guardian found her will when my father passed and brought this up in her final report to the court that it was a joint account and the monies should have been transferred to my father.

 

If it was a joint account, then there was nothing to transfer.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

My attorney believes we win.

 

Win what?

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

We are in probate and my attorney wants to do something called a TEDRA.   However, i would like to ask a couple questions?

 

Since you have an attorney, I'm curious why you want input from anonymous strangers on the internet, many of whom are not attorneys, and who may or may not be in the state where the probate is taking place, and who have not read any of the relevant papers.

 

By the way, based on a quick Google search, "TEDRA" is an acronym for the Trust and Estate Dispute Resolution Act.  It is a body of law in the State of Washington.  Is that where the probate is taking place?  If so, while "do . . . a TEDRA" might very well be a shorthand way of referring to something, but it is likely that only a Washington probate attorney is going to know what that means.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

The former POA never transferred the money.  Shouldn't that money have automatically been transferred to my father?

 

A POA is a document; it's not a person.  I assume you're referring to Mr. McDonald's, but I'm not sure what "transfer" you're talking about.  As noted above, it is almost certain that the joint account that your father had with his wife became a solely-owned account upon her death and there was nothing to transfer.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

As a joint account, on her death, doesn't that money automatically become his?

 

Unless a non-standard account agreement was used, yes.

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

Can her kids legally claim that it is their money, since there was a POD and my father has now passed, even though the former POA did follower her  will with a transfer to my father?

 

They can claim anything they like, but I doubt that's what you intended to ask.  What does "the former POA did follower her will" mean?

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

Can she even have a will claiming what to do with a joint account?

 

She did, so it should be obvious that she could.  However, because the joint account agreement trumps the will and she died first, it doesn't matter what her will said (although, according to you, her will said that, if she died first, he got the money, which is exactly what the account agreement likely provided).

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

Is the former POA liable?

 

For what?

 

 

48 minutes ago, MGSACS said:

On my father's death he quit claimed the house over to my father's dead wife's kids, within a couple of weeks.

 

Any action taken by the agent pursuant to a POA after the death of the principal would be void because the authority conferred by a POA terminates upon the death of the principal.

 

P.S. I just looked at the thread you started last December, and it appears that all (or nearly all) of this was covered already, so I'm not sure why we're revisit it or why you started a new thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your responses.  Let me attempt to answer a few questions.  We had been living out of state and were moving back, and were unaware of what was going on until my father's wife's passing a few months later.  I am not an attorney and have never gone through, this what seems to be an unending process.  That is why I am asking additional questions.  Our attorney is great, but at $300 an hour I would like to make sure I even know what to ask him.  Yes we are in Washington state and yes the account was joint.  The former POA just left the account and told the professional guardians that there was a POD which went to the wife's kids on my father's death.  So it just sat there until the guardian actually read the will.  By this time my father had passed, so the guardian got an order from the court to freeze the monies until it was determined what to do with it through probate.   What I mean by win is that the other side does not get the funds, which are going towards my children's college accounts.  

 

How we even found out about this is that McDonald's attempted to get guardianship of my father, on being notified is when i hired an attorney.  On being challenged in court Mr. McDonalds withdrew his request for guardianship but wanted to keep the POA.  I was then able to get a professional guardian put in place, where Mr. McDonalds dropped my father off at a retirement home, only to be seen again on my father's death with the other families kids demanding money.  Before my father's passing the family was able to get Mr.McDonalds removed as executor of the will and my father's brother was his replacement.

 

When we moved back to WA state, we still were over 200 miles away from my father.  As we attempted to investigate we were told by numerous people (funeral home, ass't living community manager, etc.) that they could not give us any information since we did not have a POA and that they were told by the POA not to talk to us.

 

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point, I'm not quite sure what your ultimate goal in posting is, but it all seems to boil down to the joint account.  As you've described the situation, it's a pretty cut-and-dried thing.  It was a joint account, so your father became sole owner following his wife's debt, and whatever money was in that account at the time of your father's death now belongs to his estate.  Nothing (or virtually nothing) relating to Mr. McDonald's or the guardian is relevant to this.

 

Let us know if there's more that you'd like to discuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, thank you.  That is very clear.  This has been a very personal and draining process.  Not legally relevant, but Mr.McDonald's made my family's life miserable.  The few months he had the POA he was able to drain around $50,000 from my father's retirement.  My first goal was the protection and well being of my elderly father.  My goal now is the college funds promised my children.  Although I do wish I could do something legally to Mr. McDonalds.  Adult Protective Services said that when my father signed over the POA and had Mr. McDonalds change the will that my father could have been lucid.  Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is something else that has come to mind and I would like to bounce something off of all of you.  Same individuals as in the above posts (my father, and the gentlemen from McDonald's and my father's second wife who passed before him).  However, not the POD situation.  Immediately after my father's wife passed (my father had been previously diagnosed with Alzheimer's and early onset of dementia) the person from McDonald's who convinced my father to turn over his POA to him and place everything in my father's will in his name, immediately transferred $300,000 over to my father's dead wife's children.  This was in a bank account in her name.  There was no probate, he just transferred the money to them, while my father was still alive.  

 

The former POA kept all financial records and put his name on all accounts.  Supposedly there were some stocks that my father and his wife had.  When I had a professional guardian appointed, she asked, but the former POA said he had no records?  We have no idea what my father had or didn't have.

 

Lastly, when my father married his wife 15 years ago, she had sold her house and used her funds to purchase a new home where they both lived.  At that time he quit claimed his interest in the new home over to her.  A few months after my father's wife passed, the former POA quit claimed the home over to my father's dead wife's children for $10.

 

These are my new questions that I have not even run by my attorney as of yet.  We live in Washington State.  Is there any wrong doing by the former POA or my father's dead wife's children?  Is there anything that i can do?

 

Thanks again.

 

Elliot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MGSACS said:

Is there any wrong doing by the former POA or my father's dead wife's children?  Is there anything that i can do?

Possibility.  An attorney-in-fact, that is a person who has been so appointed by a power-of-attorney document, is authorized to act on behalf of the principal.  However, the attorney-in-fact has a fiduciary duty to act for the benefit of the principal.  A beach of that duty can void transactin done by the attorney-in-fact that are not authorized by the principal or can hold the attorney-in-fact liable for breaching the fiduciary duties.  Also, the attorney-in-fact has only the authority set out in the power-of-attorney document and actions ouutside thatpower are voidable.

 

You definitely need to discuss all this with your attorney.  There may be time limits on taking action. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, the powers of the attorney in fact terminated on your father's death, and any act as attorney in fact after his death, is voidable.  Now if you meant he transferred money or property already in his name, that would not apply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question concerning my previous posts.  The person who had POA for my father almost immediately transferred $300,000 over to my father's deceased wife's family after she passed.  My father had early onset of dementia and Alzheimer's.  Supposedly there were also some stocks, insurance and other things.  We never saw any financial documents, the POA began emptying my father's house before we could get a court order for him to stop and return the goods... which he did some of.

 

Is there a way i can find out what assets he/they had?  I went to the IRS and they said since they filed jointly I could not get the information.  I know the former POA put his name on all accounts and was transferring monies left and right.  How do I find out what assets they had?  My father's wife passed first.

 

He, the former POA even said that since my father wanted to set up college funds for my kids education, he would set them up and fund them... each of the two funds has $300 in them, with the former POA the only one able to access.

 

Again, thanks for any help.

 

Elliot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...