David_chapman

Americans with Disabilities Act

16 posts in this topic

I have Bipolar Disorder and PTSD. My shitzu qualifies as a psychiatric service animal because she performs the action of licking my face until I calm down from a panic attack, thus "performing a specific function (action) related to my disability". I have to file with BOLI literally weekly because businesses dont know the law, and apparently the LOCAL health dept literally everywhere tells businesses that I need my service animal to have a "license, certificate, documentation, etc", upon request, even thought the ADA specifically says if the local health dept says this they are violating the ADA.  I know this is NOT in conformity with the law. Since most of these occurrences originate from the health depts instructions, can I sue the County Heath Dept under the ADA? I already have filed complaints with BOLI against 2 businesses and one prospective employer....why should i have to file almost daily/weekly with BOLI and have my life impeded constantly as a disabled person??? Is there no other means by which I can alleviate this problem without succumbing to the whims of the businesses and making my life as a disabled person more difficult??

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What exactly is the Health Department advising businesses to do? And have you (and your attorney) met with the Health Department to discuss the matter? It may be that simply engaging the Depeartment (respectfully, of course) will help you get the changes you need. 

 

There are, unfortunately, more than a just a few pet owners out there who abuse the ADA and FHA by claiming their pet is a service (or in the case of the FHA, a support) animal and as a result businesses and landlords have started to take a more agressive stance with regards to this to try to weed out the abusers. Personally I think that the law ought to be changed to provide some manner to more easily resolve this problem so that pet owners don’t abuse the law but at the same time provide disabled people with ready access to the goods and services they need just like anyone else. Perhaps some kind of government certification of service/support animals would be worthwhile in that regard. Whether that or something else, something needs to be done to fix this conflict. 

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1 hour ago, David_chapman said:

the LOCAL health dept literally everywhere tells businesses that I need my service animal to have a "license, certificate, documentation, etc", upon request

 

Regarding your use of the word "literally," I suggest you read this because you apparently don't understand what it means (which makes me wonder about your use of the same word earlier in this sentence).  I assume that, in reality, you're only concerned with a small handful of local health departments in Oregon (hardly "literally everywhere").

 

 

1 hour ago, David_chapman said:

can I sue the County Heath Dept under the ADA?

 

Anyone can sue anyone for anything.

 

 

1 hour ago, David_chapman said:

why should i have to file almost daily/weekly with BOLI and have my life impeded constantly as a disabled person?

 

I'll simple refer you to what "Tax_Counsel" wrote.

 

 

1 hour ago, David_chapman said:

Is there no other means by which I can alleviate this problem without succumbing to the whims of the businesses and making my life as a disabled person more difficult?

 

If you want a legal solution and politely engaging the persons involved doesn't solve the problem, then suing is the only other option.  Feel free to consult with a local attorney.

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5 hours ago, pg1067 said:

 

"Regarding your use of the word "literally," I suggest you read this because you apparently don't understand what it means (which makes me wonder about your use of the same word earlier in this sentence).  I assume that, in reality, you're only concerned with a small handful of local health departments in Oregon (hardly "literally everywhere")."

First... I MEANT LITERALLY EVERYWHERE IN EVERY STATE I HAVE BEEN TO!!!!! Including Oregon, California, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, and New Mexico. TAKE YOUR TROLL ASS BACK TO FACEBOOK!!!!

 

 

"Anyone can sue anyone for anything."
NO!! You cant sue ANYONE for ANYTHING!!! You cant sue facebook for blocking you for a violation of their POS, can you?

 

 

"I'll simple refer you to what "Tax_Counsel" wrote."

YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE and left your cracker jack opinion in the box!!!

 

 

 

"If you want a legal solution and politely engaging the persons involved doesn't solve the problem, then suing is the only other option.  Feel free to consult with a local attorney."

Considering you are NOT an attorney, maybe you should leave the answering of LEGAL questions to the LEGAL experts and stop being a douche! You have been reported! Dont tell me what I LITERALLY mean!

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tax_Counsel said:

What exactly is the Health Department advising businesses to do? And have you (and your attorney) met with the Health Department to discuss the matter? It may be that simply engaging the Depeartment (respectfully, of course) will help you get the changes you need. 

 

There are, unfortunately, more than a just a few pet owners out there who abuse the ADA and FHA by claiming their pet is a service (or in the case of the FHA, a support) animal and as a result businesses and landlords have started to take a more agressive stance with regards to this to try to weed out the abusers. Personally I think that the law ought to be changed to provide some manner to more easily resolve this problem so that pet owners don’t abuse the law but at the same time provide disabled people with ready access to the goods and services they need just like anyone else. Perhaps some kind of government certification of service/support animals would be worthwhile in that regard. Whether that or something else, something needs to be done to fix this conflict. 

Thank you for your CIVIL response, unlike the moron below.... To answer your question.... The business is saying that the health dept is telling them that they can ask if a disabled person with a service animal has a "license or documentation" to PROVE it is a service animal... incidentally, this was just AFTER the new manager told me she had gotten a written complaint but refused to show it to me, AND also refused to give her name when I told her I would be filing a complaint with BOLI.

I have called the local health dept twice so far and each time had to leave a voice mail, and have not received a response as of yet. I dont have legal representation because I am homeless due to my disabilities and cannot afford one.

I understand very well the abuse that regular pet owners commit, but the Federal law is very clear on the matter. That is something they need to take to their legislature. I want to keep this on topic as much as possible, thank you.Pursuant to the ADA, businesses are only allowed to ask TWO questions: 1) Is that a service animal? and 2) What service is it trained to perform? Incidentally, in Oregon, ESA's have additional protections that do not allow landlords to discriminate against them either.

Unfortunately, changing the law will ONLY serve to levy more restrictions and limitations on the disabled... and make it easier for people that really just want  something to complain about. The DOJ apparently ranks dogs that are well mannered and obedient as LOW RISKS in businesses., thus the reason they state nothing is required, and it is based on the "honor system"....  the fact that business owners dont even ask the established questions is proof they just want to give a hard time... It really has nothing to do with concern over people abusing it... There are already laws in place that make it a criminal offense to fraudulently claim your pet as a service animal.... what else should there be??? Me carrying around my complete medical history, and having a doctor on call 24/7 to explain it to them? Having me have to PURCHASE certification??? More of a burden on me. They just dont care. I have tried REPEATEDLY to get businesses to just LOOK at the ADA online but they refuse, so there is no real interest in determining who is a pet and who is not.
Even the public doesnt understand the situation. I had a private citizen call ME an **** because I told the business I was gong to sue them.... ME!! I am an **** because I have a disability and I want the law respected....

Honestly, the only conflict is assholes need to learn the law and stop harassing people, whether they are lying OR NOT... but ESPECIALLY when they are not. Honestly, I feel sometimes like I wasted my time getting a B.S. in Criminal Justice.
Again, thank you for your civil reply.

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5 hours ago, pg1067 said:

 

Regarding your use of the word "literally," I suggest you read this because you apparently don't understand what it means (which makes me wonder about your use of the same word earlier in this sentence). 

Also, GENIUS, considering I hold TWO Bachelors Degrees in Criminal Justice and Sociology, minoring in deviant psychology and english composition and rhetoric, have PUBLISHED research, a 146 IQ and , AND turned down an invite to MENSA,  I LITERALLY resent your condescension and attempt at insulting my intellect and education....Lastly, your comment was nothing more than an ad hominem fallacy attack and the sign of someone that doesnt have much of an education himself....

 

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55 minutes ago, David_chapman said:

Thank you for your CIVIL response, unlike the moron below.... To answer your question.... The business is saying that the health dept is telling them that they can ask if a disabled person with a service animal has a "license or documentation" to PROVE it is a service animal... incidentally, this was just AFTER the new manager told me she had gotten a written complaint but refused to show it to me, AND also refused to give her name when I told her I would be filing a complaint with BOLI.

I have called the local health dept twice so far and each time had to leave a voice mail, and have not received a response as of yet. I dont have legal representation because I am homeless due to my disabilities and cannot afford one.

 

If all the Health Department is doing is giving erroneous advice then I don't see a good claim against the Health Department. If it was requiring businesses to do that under threat of being in violation of some Health Department rule or regulation it would be different. A business is required to follow the law, regardless of where it gets its advice from. If a business discriminates against you under the ADA because the business got bad advice from its lawyer, you can’t sue the lawyer for that. You sue the business as it was the one that actually committed the violation. It's the same principle here with the health department. If all it is doing is giving advice, you cannot sue it for the bad advice. You sue the business that actually violates your rights. Yes, unfortunately that means you get stuck with the current situation you have of dealing with each of these businesses individually.

 

Thus, I think if you could get to talk to the officials who run the Health Department and explained the problem, pointed out the law and that businesses are telling you they are following Health Department advice perhaps you can convince them to change that advice and reduce the conflicts you have over this. Perhaps it would help to contact a disability rights advocacy organization to assist you in discussing the matter with the Health Department. Sometimes having such a group is useful since it helps show that the issue impacts more than one person and helps impress on the Department what the law really is so that it can change the advice it gives. 

 

I can't say what the right solution is the problem of both ensuring that pet owners don't abuse the system and also ensuring that disabled persons are able to get the assistance from their service animals in business without hassle. But it seems to me that this is a frequent enough problem that some kind of change in the law is needed to address it.  If there was a good solution that cut down on the problem you are experiencing I would think you'd be happy to embrace it, wouldn't you? Simply saying that the current law should be good enough seems to me insufficient when clearly under the current system people are having problems with it, both businesses and disabled persons. 

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When you get a response your don't care for, ignore it. No need to answer in kind. 1. PG is a lawyer. 2. He was right, anyone can sue anyone for anything. That being said, that is a far cry from saying there going to win the lawsuit, let alone survive a motion to dismiss.

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16 hours ago, Tax_Counsel said:

 

If all the Health Department is doing is giving erroneous advice then I don't see a good claim against the Health Department. If it was requiring businesses to do that under threat of being in violation of some Health Department rule or regulation it would be different.

OF COURSE thats the case? Are you an attorney?

 

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16 hours ago, Tax_Counsel said:

A business is required to follow the law, regardless of where it gets its advice from. 

When Federal law trumps state and local law, the business is obligated to follow the federal law... If the Health dept is giving false information, THAT i a violation of law...

 

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16 hours ago, Tax_Counsel said:

"You sue the business as it was the one that actually committed the violation. "... 
Yeah, youre OBVIOUSLY not an attorney... EVEN I know that is incorrect.... it is called "good faith doctrine"... same thing with police... if they did something that violated your rights but had a GOOD FAITH BELIEF that what they were doing was lawful, they will not be held accountable..... I AM DONE with this site.... ridiculous that ANYONE can get on here and talk about law as if they know what tey are talking about.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Tax_Counsel said:

and the ADA specifically says  that if the local health dept says this THEY are in violation of the ADA.....SMFH

 

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3 hours ago, David_chapman said:

and the ADA specifically says  that if the local health dept says this THEY are in violation of the ADA.....SMFH

 

No, it does not. In fact, the ADA does not specifically mention state and local health departments at all. Here is a link to the full text of the ADA. Read it yourself and you will see that I am correct. I would think that before making this kind of claim and attacking me for being wrong you would actually READ the ADA first. SMH.

 

The only part of the ADA that comes even close to addressing this is § 503(b) (42 U.S.C. § 12203(b)). This section states: “It shall be unlawful to coerce, intimidate, threaten, or interfere with any individual in the exercise or enjoyment of, or on account of his or her having exercised or enjoyed, or on account of his or her having aided or encouraged any other individual in the exercise or enjoyment of, any right granted or protected by this chapter.” This was the section to which I referred earlier when I said that if the Health Department was actually telling businesses they had to do things that violate the ADA or be in violation of a Health Department rule or regulation it would be in violation of the ADA because in that case it is interfering with your rights under the ADA, i.e. it is actually taking some action to interfere with your rights. But merely giving advice, without more, is not coercing, intimidating, threatening, or interfering with anyone in the exercise of their rights under the ADA. The business is perfectly free to reject the advice it gets. Because of that, it is only the business that is liable for following whatever advice it gets. You could not successly sue the business' lawyer for the advice he or she gave the business, and I trust you see why that is. Well, the Health Department is no different than the lawyer when it comes to this. The Health Department would have to do something more than just give advice. If it required businesses to do something that violated your rights, you may have a good claim for violating § 503 of the ADA. 

 

It appears that you may be the sort that simply attacks and insults people when you get an answer to something that you don't like rather than considering the possibility that the other person may be right and that things are not what you thought they were. I was civil and respectful to you, and I would simply ask that you treat me the same way. You came here asking a question about whether you could sue the Health Department over this. Presumably that is because you are not a lawyer and do not know the law in this area. So if you don't know the law and are asking questions, why do you immediately assume that the answers you get are wrong and even worse, that the people helping you are ignorant? If you disagree with something or question something, state that respectfully and the dialog you get from that may help you. But you are just going to continue to attack and be rude then I'll not bother to help you further. 

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37 minutes ago, Tax_Counsel said:

 

 

"No, it does not. In fact, the ADA does not specifically mention state and local health departments at all. Here is a link to the full text of the ADA." Ok, so the EXACT wording isnt there, but the PREMISE fits.
https://www.ada.gov/archive/qasrvc.htm
"

6. Q: My county health department has told me that only a guide dog has to be admitted. If I follow those regulations, am I violating the ADA?

A: Yes, if you refuse to admit any other type of service animal on the basis of local health department regulations or other state or local laws. The ADA provides greater protection for individuals with disabilities and so it takes priority over the local or state laws or regulations.".... 

 

 "But merely giving advice, without more, is not coercing, intimidating, threatening, or interfering with anyone in the exercise of their rights under the ADA."

I never said the MERELY gave advise. I said they TOLD the businesses that I HAD to have a certification....

" If it required businesses to do something that violated your rights, you may have a good claim for violating § 503 of the ADA. " 

Thank you for acknowledging what I said, finally.

 

"It appears that you may be the sort that simply attacks and insults people when you get an answer to something that you don't like rather than considering the possibility that the other person may be right and that things are not what you thought they were. "

No, I am tired of people NOT READING WHAT I SAID and ASSUMING something else, like THEY know what they are talking about... Dont go insulting me now, ESPECIALLY when youre NOT a lawyer!!! Ad hominem attacks are the realm of the troll.....

"So if you don't know the law and are asking questions, why do you immediately assume that the answers you get are wrong and even worse, that the people helping you are ignorant?"

Because SOME of the things you say I KNOW are not fact... having a B.S. in Criminal Justice helps... what are your credentials, by the way?

"f you disagree with something or question something, state that respectfully and the dialog you get from that may help you. But you are just going to continue to attack and be rude then I'll not bother to help you further."

Says the guy that just attacked me....when you start talking about ME personally, instead of the CONTENT, YES, you have made an ad hominem attack.... Dude, I dont give TWO F*CKS if you ever reply to me again... F*CK OFF!

 

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3 hours ago, David_chapman said:

"No, it does not. In fact, the ADA does not specifically mention state and local health departments at all. Here is a link to the full text of the ADA." Ok, so the EXACT wording isnt there, but the PREMISE fits.
https://www.ada.gov/archive/qasrvc.htm
"

6. Q: My county health department has told me that only a guide dog has to be admitted. If I follow those regulations, am I violating the ADA?

A: Yes, if you refuse to admit any other type of service animal on the basis of local health department regulations or other state or local laws. The ADA provides greater protection for individuals with disabilities and so it takes priority over the local or state laws or regulations.".... 

 

That item tells you two things. One, that what the Health Department told the business in that example was wrong. Two, it tells you that if the business follows that bad advice, the BUSINESS has violated the ADA. But nothing in what you quoted says the Health Department violated the ADA. You’ve acknowledged that what I said was true: nowhere in the ADA does it say that a Health Department violates the ADA merely by giving bad advice. Nor has the Justice Department (which enforces the part of the ADA relating to places of public accomodations) ever said that giving bad advice violates the ADA. Nor are there any federal court cases that say that either.

 

How do I know that? Because I have extensively researched the ADA. I am a lawyer and a person who, like you, has a disability that is not obvious and who needs an accommodation at times from businesses that is simple to provide but that they are often reluctant to provide. So I have encountered some of the same kinds of issues you have. Believe me, I am sympathetic to your situation. Don't mistake my answers to your questions as a lack of empathy for what you face.

 

3 hours ago, David_chapman said:

I never said the MERELY gave advise. I said they TOLD the businesses that I HAD to have a certification....

" If it required businesses to do something that violated your rights, you may have a good claim for violating § 503 of the ADA. " 

Thank you for acknowledging what I said, finally.

 

The Health Department telling the business it thinks that the ADA requires you to have a certificate is simply wrong advice. The Health Department does not enforce the ADA. The U.S. Justice Department does. The Health Department cannot force the business to require you to have a certification. Unless the Health Department was telling the business that the Health Department would sanction the business somehow for not requiring a certification it is not violating your rights here. It is simply telling the business what it thinks the ADA requires. That is advice and nothing more since the Health Department has no more authority in ADA matters than you or me. 

 

Can you quote exactly what the Health Department told the businesses? That would be important. Indeed, can you even confirm that the Health Department made the comments the businesses claim it made? One of the things I find in dealing with businesses on ADA issues is that when I challenge them on their policy they trot out the old line that some law or government agency required it when, in fact, nothing of the sort ever happened. The business lies about it because telling a customer some government agency told them that often cuts off the argument and the customer caves in because the customer doesn't know better. It's not right, of course, but it happens a lot. 

 

3 hours ago, David_chapman said:

Says the guy that just attacked me....when you start talking about ME personally, instead of the CONTENT, YES, you have made an ad hominem attack.... Dude, I dont give TWO F*CKS if you ever reply to me again... F*CK OFF!

 

How nice. Look up at the this thread. You attacked me first for a reply that was respectful and addressed the issue you raised and said nothing about you personally. That post was the one at 5/18/2018 (Friday) at 11:27 PM. Read that again and you will see there is no attack in there at all. Then in response to that, you attacked me personally, saying that I must not be a lawyer and that I didn’t know what I was talking about. Your responses did not just focus on the content. So according to what you just said above, I guess that makes you a troll, right?

 

All I did in my follow-up after your attack was call you out on it. And instead of being civil and admitting you should not have attacked me, you instead attack even more and start throwing obsenities at me too. Do you think that's being civil and polite? Your attack above was far more rude than anything I've said to you. Really, dude, when you start attacking others, you should not be surprised when they call you out on it. I get that you don't like it, but it's your own damn fault for starting down the path on personal attacks.

 

I suggest you take a step back and chill a bit. I have nothing against you personally (other than not liking your attacking posts) and am sympathetic to the problems you have with these businesses. I get that you don't like the answers I gave you, but you are shooting the messenger here. I don’t make the laws. And I’m not telling you that I think what the Health Department is doing is right. If it is giving bad advice, that's wrong. But like it or not, that doesn't violate the ADA. Again, I didn’t write the law, so don’t attack me because you don’t like the law. 

 

I’m willing to bury the hatchet here. Are you? 

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I am sorry.. I have Bipolar disorder and PTSD and a host of other things and get defensive very quickly .... I know it is a problem I have...... I will try to be more civil... I look at society and the world in general and how screwed up it is and tend to treat all people like they are **** too.... Not to get into my "****" too much, but I spent 12 yrs in prison for a crime the federal govt now says was not a crime. I have been out 10 yrs but the horrors I experienced are fresh in my face every damn day.... I dont know WHY I havent killed myself yet... stubborn I guess... NO ONE will help me... i am left to live on the streets with JUST this animal that aids me in just maintaining sanity. I have done all I can do to change... gotten 9 yrs clean and sober, two Bachelors degrees in Criminal Justice and Sociology....havent actually put my hands on anyone in MANY years....anyway, thats why I am the way I am....I am just sick to death of "society " not following the laws, harassing people like us, being ignorant and hypocritical all the time.. I KNOW I have a good mind, but I cant use it, and that despairs me to no end. so, I will stop here. thanks for everything.

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